Curse

Calista Blackblood · Oct 27, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I'm astounded by this thread,so much so I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Spookii · Oct 27, 2010, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I always thought it was weird how they gave us tanking skills but never really gave us a game to tank in.

Did they just decide to change their minds at the last minute? Or is there some secret that no one has caught on to yet?

Life Bringing · Oct 27, 2010, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Im so lost. Zodiac, you've argued so many different points in this thread using so many different terms that i can't tell if you're being retarded or you're just really bad at getting your point across.

For clarification, repeat EXACTLY what the point you are trying to make is while being as specific as possible by stating group comp, if its a pug, sc tank(ie doa) or pug tank, etc etc.

**Marty Silverblade** · Oct 27, 2010, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

This thread is about absorb damage vs. dealing damage.

You seem to think the two are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Of course tanking techniques, AKA mob control is awesome. It's every monks dream to keep the team well alive, while killing fast.

...the thread seems to be mostly you either not expressing yourself properly or contradicting yourself a lot.

Lourens · Oct 27, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood

I'm astounded by this thread,so much so I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

So am I .......

The Drunkard · Oct 27, 2010, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

PFFFF HA HA HA HA, SF tanks, funny. Why are there so many?
1. Dungeons has lots of mobs.
2. Activate god mode.
3. Run to boss.
4. ??????
5. Profit

Dungeons are designed differently than Elite areas. If you actually speed clear elite areas you'd understand that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Yep, they deal damage, a lot of damage? Yes, but fails in comparison to any kind of melee.

Give me a non HB+MoP combo meele run to do more dps, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

It was an example of the most basic DPS skill on the warrior. Power attack sucks in builds that doesn't have Warriors Endurance. It's a basic skill for a basic example. Read Food for Thought, managed to get a guildy that did 600+ damage in 1 second, that's insta-kill most foes in all of Guild Wars. That's without cons.

Again with the theory-crafting and master of damage testing. If these builds cranked out the constant godly dps that you flaunt, then WHY are they not used in meta builds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

It doesn't work good anywhere, not a single area in Guild Wars requires a tank.

Not every area in Guild wars requires 8 skills on your bar. (See what I did there?). Have you tried doing DoA or UW without prof that tanks or draws agro in HM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Tank-n-spank tactics, their slow, dangerous and just plain bad. Urgoz, DoA, UW, Deep, Slavers doesn't require tank-n-spank or speed clearing. It fast and more efficient NOT to tank-n-spank. If you can't kill a mob without tank-n-spank your team structure is flawed.

I'd love to see UW, DoA, done in a reasonable time without Tanks in HM, Screenies plox. And when you come pack posting terras or permaform builds, I'd like to mention that they tank as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Do I need to post screenies as evidence, what about a video? This info is 5 years old yet some people can't believe their eyes.

Please do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Damage sponge? Really? Oh yeah, you can get far, but it will take an extra 2 hours that it should. Where in the game has a ton of high levels that DOESN'T die if you breath on them?

The Deep SC (with tanks) can be done in 12 min, Terraway is usually done in 40, FoW is usually 30+. The only evidence you have showing faster non-tank groups faster are -3mans, and the GW population that can run those bars is abysmally small.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Would you A, body block it with the elite Defy Pain or B, body block it with the elite Earthshaker? Regardless of your build, body block it just one build out does the other.

Again, read my section on tanking. You don't seem to understand that a tank does not need defy pain on their bar or half a build devoted to damage mitigation. A tank draws agro to spike, THE END.

paranon · Oct 27, 2010, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

3. You just contradicted yourself. That picture of 3 people and 9 heroes HAD no tanking skills for mob control. We been outdone and you basically just agreed what I'm saying, tanking sucks and DPS is better. Look at his necros, it even has Strength and Honor + Splinter Weapon for the melee.

90% of the deep can't hit above 25 damage, but other other 10% will give you some trouble or any team with no monks can beat it with flying colors. The point of the video was to show it is beatable without tank-n-spanking manlyway. Because I was argued that "elite area's can't be beat without a tank" which is wrong.

-"IAU" is one of the primary "tanking skills" used.
-We had a stance on one of the other warriors, which was used as the "primary tank".
-We had soh and splinter because we made those builds for people to cspace through the area, after we had tested the builds cspacing we went for time with some tanking tactics for fun, and we got it down to 23 before we got bored. Those builds are now on pvx and people are using them to go through the area with no tanking tactics.
-Anything is beatable without a tank (doa glaiveway) but most elite areas are sped up massively with the introduction of a tank (DoASC Trenchway, DoA Balanced).
-When people talk about "speed clears" they are generally NOT talking about dungeons.

As piercing said, im not entirely sure what point you are arguing here, tanking in general clearly doesnt suck because 4 out of 5 of the elite area records were achieved with a tank/nuke setup. I agree that in places tanking is unnecessary but in most situations balling up foes and mitigating damage makes things faster and smoother. Come up with a clear set of points and some kind of evidence to back it up and people might take you seriously. At the moment you are arguing in circles and making no sense.

Calista Blackblood · Oct 27, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

-"IAU" is one of the primary "tanking skills" used.
-We had a stance on one of the other warriors, which was used as the "primary tank".
-We had soh and splinter because we made those builds for people to cspace through the area, after we had tested the builds cspacing we went for time with some tanking tactics for fun, and we got it down to 23 before we got bored. Those builds are now on pvx and people are using them to go through the area with no tanking tactics.
-Anything is beatable without a tank (doa glaiveway) but most elite areas are sped up massively with the introduction of a tank (DoASC Trenchway, DoA Balanced).
-When people talk about "speed clears" they are generally NOT talking about dungeons.

As piercing said, im not entirely sure what point you are arguing here, tanking in general clearly doesnt suck because 4 out of 5 of the elite area records were achieved with a tank/nuke setup. I agree that in places tanking is unnecessary but in most situations balling up foes and mitigating damage makes things faster and smoother. Come up with a clear set of points and some kind of evidence to back it up and people might take you seriously. At the moment you are arguing in circles and making no sense.

This is post of the thread tbh

Essence Snow · Oct 27, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Tanking is fine as long as your tank is good and able to ball aggro properly. There are some good tanks, but unfortunately most stink. No tank is better than a bad tank. A bad tank = wasted character in a team. For most pug groups....yes tanking sucks! I'm not sure what ppl Paranon is talking about, but I guess it all depends on who you associate with, when talking about SCs. There are what 5 SCs other than dungeons? There are more than 5 dungeon SCs...so I'm not to sure about that.

paranon · Oct 27, 2010, 02:21 PM // 14:21

It isn't simply about numbers, "Speedclears" can be split up into two groups, Dungeon SCs, which generally use a team of SF sins to run past most foes and kill key bosses quickly, and Elite Area SCs, which more often than not feature a spike team with one or more tanks to clear one of the 5 elite areas. When talking in terms of tanking, "Speedclears" almost always refers to elite areas, to me speedclears means elite areas anyway, but it might mean something different to somebody who does alot of dungeons. I'm not sure.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Deep without any tank-n-spank slow tactics. Without any speed clear mob control tactics, we gone in, killed everything and moved on.

I just watched a few minutes of this, i was even more amused than i thought i was going to be.. if that is your answer to "tank-n-spank" then it is a pretty pathetic attempt. Just a few of the points i picked up:
-Firstly, you felt the need to pop egg, corn and apple to do the deep.. not only is it one of the easiest areas in the game but we get times of <15mins even on the most casual runs with no pcons used, using "tank-n-spank slow tactics".
-That EMo bar looks too much like hard work, you are constantly spamming to keep your energy up and your team alive - with a tank the only thing required is seeding the tank and ressing up anybody who gets spiked.
-Thirdly, if this isn't tanking, then i'm not sure what is.
And that is ignoring the fact that it is over 10 minutes slower than a run with 1/6th the number of players. Yeah, tanking sucks..
Sorry, but your arguments, evidence and alternatives are about as watertight as a sieve. Try harder.

P_A_A · Oct 27, 2010, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Just to support Paranon's post...

http://yfrog.com/3vgw3xj

And this one wasn't even a fast time...Heros aren't even correctly runed.

So in conclusion. Tanking involves more things rather than Defy Pain.

PS. And I'm afraid i can do more damage than any of the guys in your team.

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 27, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

-"IAU" is one of the primary "tanking skills" used.
-We had a stance on one of the other warriors, which was used as the "primary tank".
-We had soh and splinter because we made those builds for people to cspace through the area, after we had tested the builds cspacing we went for time with some tanking tactics for fun, and we got it down to 23 before we got bored. Those builds are now on pvx and people are using them to go through the area with no tanking tactics.
-Anything is beatable without a tank (doa glaiveway) but most elite areas are sped up massively with the introduction of a tank (DoASC Trenchway, DoA Balanced).
-When people talk about "speed clears" they are generally NOT talking about dungeons.

As piercing said, I'm not entirely sure what point you are arguing here, tanking in general clearly doesn't suck because 4 out of 5 of the elite area records were achieved with a tank/nuke setup. I agree that in places tanking is unnecessary but in most situations balling up foes and mitigating damage makes things faster and smoother. Come up with a clear set of points and some kind of evidence to back it up and people might take you seriously. At the moment you are arguing in circles and making no sense.

Not exactly true, granted, speed clear DOES require a tank. But as I said before, the tanks are to ignore enemies and run past them but not ball and nuke. I stated this in OP what speed clearing is. For example. Deep SC record requires a tank build to hold a mob while players run through and return back to the group of players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Dungeons are designed differently than Elite areas. If you actually speed clear elite areas you'd understand that.

Noooo, you mean dungeons and elite area's have different monsters and different skills? I never knew that, I'm guessing Kath SC is to beat the dungeon as slowly as possible while UW goes straight to Dhuum.

Speed clear is a speed clear.

Quote:

Give me a non HB+MoP combo melee run to do more dps, please.

Rit dealing 600 damage in a single second only using 7 skills, 2 from other players. No cons. Wota sins, enduring scythe warriors, attack spam DERVISHES. Yes, dervishes.

Quote:

Again with the theory-crafting and master of damage testing. If these builds cranked out the constant godly dps that you flaunt, then WHY are they not used in meta builds?

... Really? Your arguing tanking is good. If you knew that it wasn't you might see the godly builds.

Quote:

Not every area in Guild wars requires 8 skills on your bar. (See what I did there?). Have you tried doing DoA or UW without prof that tanks or draws agro in HM?
I'd love to see UW, DoA, done in a reasonable time without Tanks in HM, Screenies plox. And when you come pack posting terras or permaform builds, I'd like to mention that they tank as well.

I did all elite areas and dungeons in Guild Wars without a tank. UW HM 1 hour and 10 minutes, DoA HM full run HM 2 hours, Deep 33 minutes HM, Urgoz 35 minutes HM. Full slavers HM 2 hours.
We did this by running in and killing, no tanking, no balling, whatever we saw we attacked and we won.
I would like to show screenies the next time we come to do these events but since it's no record it never crossed my mind. The only reason I has the Deep is because it turned Frap's on for the hell of it.

Quote:

Please do.

/faceplam, done, like yesterday.

Quote:

The Deep SC (with tanks) can be done in 12 min, Terraway is usually done in 40, FoW is usually 30+. The only evidence you have showing faster non-tank groups faster are -3mans, and the GW population that can run those bars is abysmally small.

Please read what a speed clear is and tanking is, there are NOT the same.

Quote:

Again, read my section on tanking. You don't seem to understand that a tank does not need defy pain on their bar or half a build devoted to damage mitigation. A tank draws aggro to spike, THE END.

This is the exactly the problem, this is not fast. Speed clears do NOT do this. It doesn't matter if you have half the bar or only one skill. Tank-n-spank is slow.

Quote:

And this one wasn't even a fast time...Heros aren't even correctly runed.

So in conclusion. Tanking involves more things rather than Defy Pain.

PS. And I'm afraid i can do more damage than any of the guys in your team.

1. Return and DC are have no tanking properties. How do you absorb damage when you Return to your backline?
2. Here is how they beat it, 1 person aggro all the mobs in an area, rest of the team runs through and tank recalls to the team. It's called Spiteful Spike you obviously never done this before and asked a guildy for a screenie. Spiteful spike can done in 12 minutes because teams avoid most of the mobs. That's not tanking, it's a speed clear. It involves tanking, but it DOESN'T migrate damage for the team.

Let me spell it out more.
Speed clears DOESN'T MIGRATE DAMAGE. It allows teams to avoid fighting completely.
Tanking MIGRATES DAMAGE so it increases team survivability while fighting.

PS. HA HA HA HA HA, no you can't.

Edit: I know I didn't post evidence or much to back up my arguments. If I planned to back it up I would have. I'm shocked on how many people don't understand this and confuse tanking tactics, tanking, SCing etc. to be the same thing or similar. I'll revise it later on this weekend when I can find the time.
At first I thought, there is a bunch of people that knows tanking sucks but the word is obviously not out there so I'll try to get it out. I guess I've been hanging out in my guild for to long and didn't realize I needed to have strong arguments. Ensigns post is ~4 years old, didn't have screenies and it seemed like a completely new concept. I believed later on the word, "tanking sucks" was already out there. Regardless, I should have started with a better OP.

paranon · Oct 27, 2010, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Not exactly true, granted, speed clear DOES require a tank. But as I said before, the tanks are to ignore enemies and run past them but not ball and nuke. I stated this in OP what speed clearing is. For example. Deep SC record requires a tank build to hold a mob while players run through and return back to the group of players.

have you ever done a speed clear?
Fowsc has 4 player slots devoted to spiking, not once does the tank pull anything out of the way.
DoASC is built around a mesmer SPIKE where the tanks ball things up and the team spikes it
Deepsc has 4 ss/mop necromancers to SPIKE balled groups. in the deep record two groups are pulled aside, all of the rest are spiked, in a casual run there is very little that isnt spiked.
Urgoz uses 2 tanks and a large spike team to ball and spike mobs.
Speed clearing is simply the fastest way of doing something, whether it involves running past, pulling aside, or spiking. go and play 100b for a fowsc team and tell me how many groups the mt pulls aside for you to run past without spiking, if the number is higher than 0 then you can't count.

"2. Here is how they beat it, 1 person aggro all the mobs in an area, rest of the team runs through and tank recalls to the team. It's called Spiteful Spike you obviously never done this before and asked a guildy for a screenie. Spiteful spike can done in 12 minutes because teams avoid most of the mobs. That's not tanking, it's a speed clear. It involves tanking, but it DOESN'T migrate damage for the team."
Just a tip, telling people how deep is done when there are people from the guild that created the deep tactics in the thread is really stupid. especially when you get it wrong.

Warrior Babes · Oct 27, 2010, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

1. It was the teams decision to kill the Leviathan that boss is laughably easy and really has no point as killing it is not rewarding.

it gives 500 luxong factions omg!
i know it isnt a hard boss, u just didnt kill ''everything''

Quote:

3. You just contradicted yourself. That picture of 3 people and 9 heroes HAD no tanking skills for mob control. We been outdone and you basically just agreed what I'm saying, tanking sucks and DPS is better. Look at his necros, it even has Strength and Honor + Splinter Weapon for the melee.

IAU says hi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV5Nx...eature=related
^check @ 3:25, u'll see war taking all the sappings with only ''defense skill used'' IAU, but guess its faster if u randomly run in the 30+ sappings and start c-spacing?
(also if u watch abit earlier, u see the monk getting killed by the onis.. damage between 20-23, just saying!)

Quote:

90% of the deep can't hit above 25 damage, but the other 10% will give you some trouble or any team with no monks can beat it with flying colors. The point of the video was to show it is beatable without tank-n-spanking manlyway. Because I was argued that "elite area's can't be beat without a tank" which is wrong.

only things hitting hard to casters are.. aspects and outcasts, and u are devoting 2 E/Mo's just for the few aspects (cus srsly E/Mo vs outcasts = outcasts win?).. and then u start talking about ''tanking sucks''
and ofc, i dont think any1 in there right mind thinks any area in gw isnt able to be completed without tank'n'spank
http://yfrog.com/n0gw017tj and this are hero monks.; srsly, no1 even wiped?
(panic on outcasts is win, prot spirit/seed on ally being attacked is win?)

Quote:

How is, Tanking Sucks vague or misinformed? Seems straight forward to me.

cus it doesnt suck everywhere? well, if u have a bad tank, u'll prolly be slower then c-spacing and it will be harder on the monk, but why would u take a bad tank?
*different playstyles, both work, sometimes 1 is better/faster then the other.. *

EDIT:

Quote:

2. Here is how they beat it, 1 person aggro all the mobs in an area, rest of the team runs through and tank recalls to the team. It's called Spiteful Spike you obviously never done this before and asked a guildy for a screenie. Spiteful spike can done in 12 minutes because teams avoid most of the mobs. That's not tanking, it's a speed clear. It involves tanking, but it DOESN'T migrate damage for the team

.
looks like u also havent done spiteful spike ^^
groups we skipped in the ''12min record''
-Aspect of Failure
-The Outcasts in Scorpion Room (have to kill onis to open gate, meh!)
-Room after the sappings we jump up and RECALL out to let the outcasts run to center / avoid them
- there is no 4th group we skipped here :/

groups we skipped in the ''10min record''
-Aspect of Failure
-The Outcasts in Scorpion Room
-everything after Scorpion room.
^ and that didnt make it 2mins faster.. maybe 1(start was alot speedier <<), u think that tanking = tank balls spikers w8 for ball to finish.. if this happens, ur doing it wrong,
spikers are having trouble to keep up, ur doing it right!

P_A_A · Oct 27, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

I'm shocked on how many people don't understand this and confuse tanking tactics, tanking, SCing etc. to be the same thing or similar.

Maybe you should try to learn to express yourself before actually posting something.

Oh, and believe me: a good positioned warrior with 100b + whirwilnd does way more damage than your sins trying to catch up foes...

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 27, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

have you ever done a speed clear?
FowSC has 4 player slots devoted to spiking, not once does the tank pull anything out of the way.
DoASC is built around a mesmer SPIKE where the tanks ball things up and the team spikes it
Deepsc has 4 ss/mop necromancers to SPIKE balled groups. in the deep record two groups are pulled aside, all of the rest are spiked, in a casual run there is very little that isn't spiked.
Urgoz uses 2 tanks and a large spike team to ball and spike mobs.
Speed clearing is simply the fastest way of doing something, whether it involves running past, pulling aside, or spiking. go and play 100b for a fowsc team and tell me how many groups the mt pulls aside for you to run past without spiking, if the number is higher than 0 then you can't count.

"2. Here is how they beat it, 1 person aggro all the mobs in an area, rest of the team runs through and tank recalls to the team. It's called Spiteful Spike you obviously never done this before and asked a guildy for a screenie. Spiteful spike can done in 12 minutes because teams avoid most of the mobs. That's not tanking, it's a speed clear. It involves tanking, but it DOESN'T migrate damage for the team."
Just a tip, telling people how deep is done when there are people from the guild that created the deep tactics in the thread is really stupid. especially when you get it wrong.

Lets start from the 1st one, does the entire team stay in a group or do they split to do as many quests as the can? They split, t1, t2, t3 don't stay together. Yes, that is tanking-n-spanking which is going against my argument except it isn't damage migration across the team if the entire team isn't there. This is where tanking works well because you have less people together.
This is 1 good argument.

2nd highlight was DoASC mesmer spike, it's been out done by frostway and DwG spike and DwG doesn't use a tank. However this argument does have a point that it's fast and effective for one reason only and that's Gloom. 50% chance to miss with attacks is GG plus -2 energy an attack or skill greatly hinders melee due to any physicals that rely on attacks that use energy to the ability to spam attacks and not spells, all the area's have no punishment for caster classes.
DoA is better to use spiking casters than physicals because the physical hate from environment effects.
This would be a good argument, but because of the environment of the areas effects it falters.

The 3rd highlight is where your argument falls apart. Manlyway for deep and Urgoz is slow and ineffective. I proved it to with the Deep video and can post Urgoz if you don't mind frame rate slowdown and some reason missing segments. Secondly, you don't spike 'most of the area' with spiteful spike.

The 4th highlight is laughable. I hate spiteful spike, so many fails on groups that are not knowledgeable or just plain bad. It's hard to get 6+ good players for this area for spiteful spike.
It is the fastest build and can beat the area with flying colors, 12 minutes is legendary and I praise the Guild that came up with this clever build even though it's hard to find anyone that is willing to do it. I'm not telling people to run it or not. Some one brought up,

Quote:

Deep done 12 minutes u bad

I'm not telling people how to do The Deep in anyway. In fact, I just explained spiteful spike team build, nothing more.

My argument still stands strong, list something that isn't a SC where the team works together with a tank yet beats any area with great time. I guarantee each one you list I can do better.

Quote:

a good positioned warrior with 100b + whirlwind does way more damage than your sins trying to catch up foes...

Nope, regardless of good positioning or not. Still, getting all the foes in the area in any area, in a ball then spiking isn't going to happen 98% of the time unless your team is set to tank-n-spank which is slow. I'll take the 100%, faster and better way to beat a dungeon with melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

(cus srsly E/Mo vs outcasts = outcasts win?)

Then how did we beat Kanaxai? I'm guessing Koss jumped in and saved everyone.
The time I posted that I forgot about spiteful spike, which is a SPEED CLEAR.
2 man deep?! No way, that only taken like what? 1 hour and 30 min-oooh wait a second, that's slow. Sure it's 2 people, but it's just spiteful spike. This really has no point because it took so long.

Also, I've done spiteful spike. I'm not sure if your using the build right. You avoid fighting mobs in 4-5 rooms out of the 14. A lot of avoiding mobs? Yes, considering 4 jail rooms are unavoidable and flat out easy.

Quote:

srsly, no1 even wiped

/facepalm, look at the time when they beat kanaxani, the heroes had 7DP.

Warrior Babes · Oct 27, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

The 4th highlight is laughable. I hate spiteful spike, so many fails on groups that are not knowledgeable or just plain bad. It's hard to get 6+ good players for this area for spiteful spike.
It is the fastest build and can beat the area with flying colors, 10 minutes is legendary and I praise the Guild that came up with this clever build even though it's hard to find anyone that is willing to do it. I'm not telling people to run it or not. Some one brought up,
I'm not telling people how to do The Deep in anyway. In fact, I just explained spiteful spike team build, nothing more.

practice makes perfect, teaching ur ppl to ''c-space'' isnt rly helpfull. there used to be puggroups in deep (about a year ago that is now <<) they did complete the deep in ~20-25-30minutes using cryway(that is with killing everything, except for the leviathan -_o), yes thats only ~10mins faster. i've also had pugs completing it in 45mins, and hack, even ppl that are happy they completed it in just less then 1h30mins, c-spacing trough the deep isnt bad, .. tanking trough the deep when u have the tanks for it isnt bad.

thing about tank and spank is that .. most guilds (thats not pugs) req u to go on ts/vent, cus of coordination nono! where ur ''psyway'' doesnt need that. well we also dont need it for our deep runs (even records where done without).. but u know..

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 27, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

practice makes perfect, teaching ur ppl to ''c-space'' isnt rly helpfull. there used to be puggroups in deep (about a year ago that is now <<) they did complete the deep in ~20-25-30minutes using cryway(that is with killing everything, except for the leviathan -_o), yes thats only ~10mins faster. i've also had pugs completing it in 45mins, and hack, even ppl that are happy they completed it in just less then 1h30mins, c-spacing trough the deep isnt bad, .. tanking trough the deep when u have the tanks for it isnt bad.

thing about tank and spank is that .. most guilds (thats not pugs) req u to go on ts/vent, cus of coordination nono! where ur ''psyway'' doesnt need that. well we also dont need it for our deep runs (even records where done without).. but u know..

Teaching people to tank-n-spank isn't helpful either, now that good builds got nerfed.
Cryway was nerfed because it was to strong, allowing teams to breeze through most of the game by face rolling on the keyboard. Ursan, Shadowform all got hit with the nerf missile as well.

You don't need it to beat the area's, I never said that. There is easier and faster ways to beat these put people reduce themselves to the need to have tanks AND nukers.

P_A_A · Oct 27, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

list something that isn't a SC where the team works together with a tank yet beats any area with great time. I guarantee each one you list I can do better.

It's been posted over here the 3man/9 heros build. It's not a speedclear yet uses tank and its faster than your 12 man physway. Oh, and recall/dc aren't there to go faster to your allies or to get sooner to enemies. They're for tanking purposes.

Edit:

Quote:

Cryway was nerfed because it was to strong, allowing teams to breeze through most of the game by face rolling on the keyboard. Ursan, Shadowform all got hit with the nerf missile as well.

Becozz ER healers aint overpowered...

paranon · Oct 27, 2010, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

2nd highlight was DoASC mesmer spike, it's been out done by frostway and DwG spike and DwG doesn't use a tank.

Manlyway for deep and Urgoz is slow and ineffective.

umm..
Sorry WHAT?
how can you say that manly is slow in deep when the screenshots are glaring you in the face, even with only 2 people manly is faster than yours.

also, im not sure if you aware, but [Shh] IS the record holding deep guild.